Talk:Dorothy Kilgallen

Capitalization of the word mass

Hello all- User natemup would like to have us capitalize the word mass in this article, where it currently appears in the first paragraph of the "Death" section: "Her funeral Mass took place...". I undid his capitalization, and he has reverted my undo, with the summary "clearly a proper noun, per the dictionary and its wiki page". He does not specify a dictionary. This prompted some research on my part:

• The American Heritage and Cambridge dictionaries both give the capitalization as either/or (see links), and my OED shows its modern usage in lowercase (I don't have online access).
• Our MOS reads "...only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia"; See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters.
• Comparing "funeral Mass" to "funeral mass" with Google's ngram search (1800–2020) shows a preference for the latter, except for the early 1920s to the early 1960s.
• The wp article does capitalize the term throughout (though some of the titles cited there do not). While I would take issue with some of capitalized instances in that article text, I can at least see an argument for preferring capitalization in an article specifically about a liturgical celebration.

If I were writing about "Christmas Mass" or "Easter Mass", I would capitalize the term; but for a person's funeral, I would write "Dorothy's funeral mass". Eric ^talk 13:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Curious as to why you draw a style distinction between a “Mass” said during religious holidays (Christmas/Easter/etc) and a “mass” said during a funeral? Isn’t it the same ceremony during both? Blueboar (talk) 14:50, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It is. And the wiki for the specific Mass we're talking about (a funeral or Requiem Mass) capitalizes the term. natemup (talk) 15:31, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

@Blueboar: I find it challenging to give a purely objective reason, but I see the context of this article's passage as different from, say, a more titular presentation of the term. In presenting the title of an event, I'd go with cap, for example in a poster or announcement: "All are invited to celebrate Easter Mass at Notre Dame next week". At the same time, I'd write "For me, a mass conducted in Latin has a more hallowed feel to it". Eric ^talk 15:40, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I get that. What if the announcement read: “All are invited to attend a Funeral Mass in remembrance of Jane Doe at St. Cuthbert’s Church next Friday at 2:00 PM”? Blueboar (talk) 18:59, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Egads, man, don't you know there are civility rules here? I would certainly gasp and break out the Holy Red Pen of Saint Pedanticus! Eric ^talk 20:47, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I note that our article Capitonym uses this word as an example of the difference between mass and Mass, and that the Wikipedia articles I checked consistently capitalize the religious ceremony/event. That means there is a lot of precedence, but I can't say I support it. SchreiberBike | ⌨  23:29, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It was once explained to me that the Mass is a single event occurring continuously since the Last Supper and that as single event it is a proper noun. If one is a believer, that explanation would make sense grammatically. SchreiberBike | ⌨  23:50, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

As a matter of practical reality, I think either way has become de facto acceptable practice in modern times. However almost all of the guidelines I have looked at, including the Chicago Manual of Style (which I personally accept as being one step removed from scripture), state that reference to specific liturgical practices such as the Catholic Mass and/or Orthodox Divine Liturgy are proper nouns and therefore should normatively be capitalized. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to all for the input. Has everyone looked at the links I provided above? SchreiberBike, I see that precedence as well, but I (like you?) don't think wp usage should preempt what I perceive the MOS guidance to be. Ad Orientem, I agree that either/or appears to be the modern practice (as per AHD & Cambridge), while my possibly confirmation-bias-afflicted self likes the OED entry. I too would probably write "Catholic Mass", though with the same pen I would write "her funeral mass". My impression is that modern usage sits on the fence. But my read of the MOS (see above) would have us avoid changing mass to Mass in this article's context, just as it would advise against badmintonning (word?) center and centre. Eric ^talk 01:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that until there is a firm consensus that something long accepted as a proper noun is not, that it should be treated as such. In this case we have the added potential for causing offense to those who may perceive the failure to capitalize as a form of disrespect. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

To that point, surely it's not hard to think of a reason why a British dictionary (OED) might not capitalize "Mass"... natemup (talk) 13:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

My admittedly non-exhaustive research did not show long acceptance of this noun being proper as opposed to common; rather it showed the word being treated both ways, weighted towards common. Eric ^talk 15:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia guidelines would say to use lowercase, since capitalization in such a context is not consistent in modern source usage. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• I have previously looked at this general question. Per nom, various definitions refer to either. Consequently (per MOS:CAPS) caps are not necessary, therefore we lowercase. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:09, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
• Use lowercase; this usage of mass is not a proper name. Certain other usages of it can sometimes form part of what are arguably proper names, but this is not such a case. There is no singular thing with the proper name "Funeral Mass", and even if there were it certainly would not be written "funeral Mass". The captalization of "Mass" here appears to be an attempt (witting or otherwise) to even MOS:DOCTCAPS and MOS:SIGCAPS, against the over-capitalization of religious terms simply because adherents to a particular religion find them "holy" or "important".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
• Lowercase, please. Next thing we'd have to cap "evensong". Tony (talk) 11:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Entertainment news announcement — a reliable source?

Four days ago, an entertainment news announcement mentioned Dorothy Kilgallen will be a major character in a movie, tentatively titled Assassination, filmed by the production company that Barry Levinson runs. Should the “Legacy” section of this article add one new sentence about the project? A few entertainment news outlets revealed the same information about plans for filming. Here is an RS that says filming is scheduled to begin in January 2025 in Boston. Plans for movie with Dorothy Kilgallen as a major character Brent Brant (talk) 01:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd wait until the film is actually finished and released. At that point if she is a major character we could put a line into the article. But as of now, I'd say it's WP:TOOSOON. A lot of film projects get announced and then delayed or just cancelled. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:10, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Kennedy assassination dossier missing

“Kilgallen’s dossier of research on the JFK killing — possibly seized by law-enforcement agents when she died — vanished without a trace. The files remain missing to this day.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.41.111.158 (talk) 22:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Even if a WP:FRIND source could be found, the text is way too tabloid sensational. - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh it's a WP:COPYVIO from an actual tabloid. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

RS on Bennett Cerf’s wife’s actions, not Bennett’s

I added a neutral fact about Dorothy’s What’s My Line companion Bennett Cerf that interests people. Why he was not identified as an attendee at her funeral is lost to posterity, but so what? It is a relevant, interesting fact.

Similarly, the same RS that places Bennett’s wife at the funeral places Betty White there. Her memoir does not mention Dorothy Kilgallen, so posterity is clueless as to the possible socialization of Kilgallen with White or her husband Ludden, a game show host. White appeared only a few times on What’s My Line, but this Wikipedia article says she attended the DK funeral. The “why” doesn’t matter.

An RS (NY Journal American daily paper), already cited for Bennett’s wife’s funeral attendance, doesn’t mention him. I’m not saying this implies anything about him. Please don’t accuse me of promoting a fringe theory. I’m not. The explanation will never be known, but it interests people, as does What’s My Line’s first use of videotape in 1959, also mentioned in this article.

Simply, it is interesting that a journalist who covered Dorothy’s funeral had an opportunity to tell people Bennett Cerf had been there, and that would have been newsworthy because of What’s My Line, but the journalist skipped it. The “why” is unknown, but so what? The same newspaper reporter did say Arlene Francis, John Daly and Mark Goodson showed up. A photo of Daly at the funeral was published in the NY Journal American. Brent Brant (talk) 07:57, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

It is a relevant, interesting fact. Not really. But who knows, perhaps you will find consensus here in favor of your desired content? JoJo Anthrax (talk) 15:52, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

You added the following bolded content:

Coverage of the funeral in the New York Journal-American, where she had worked, included "Mrs. Bennett Cerf" (Phyllis Fraser), among the notable people who attended, without mentioning Cerf himself.

Calling out the absence of a mention is original research on your part, unless you have an independent reliable source that considered it significant that the Journal did not mention Cerf or significant that Cerf did not attend the funeral. Schazjmd (talk) 16:09, 18 April 2025 (UTC)